Minimum wages.
 

I'm I an ass hole for voting against it? I honestly thought it would not pass. My thought was, want more money? Get a better paying job, maybe? I've never worked for minimum wage, I don't know what's its like. I think that's fair right? And this is coming from a guy who immigrated here illegally, ILLEGALLY. Not to toot my own horn, or saying that I'm successful (cause I don't think I am) but I recently purchased my second home. If we could do it, a lot more people can too.

Rant

fuck no I'm pissed.. my gf works at the daycare my kids go to.. she makes 10.50 for the last 3 years.. my wage stays the same also.. but my day care cost goes up.. so I have more money going out but no more coming in. tell me again how this is so fucking great? it made my family poorer in a sense

It is stupid. All it is going to do is cause small business / small profit margin businesses to either cut back, or raise prices.

The people who voted for this crap, obviously fail to realize what min. wage is for.

I'm going to work at mcdonalds.. it's much easier and less stress than my job. plus I'd probably qualify for government benefits on top of the 10$ an hour flipping burgers.

All I got from that was ILLEGALLY. Since you don't have Facebook I'm unfriending you from my life and building a wall around my cars. :cool:

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Some people think exactly that scenario will cause skilled job wages to increase. But until people actually do it, we'll see.
I think there should be a lower minimum wage for young people though.

Why for young people vs old?

I agree with it, I think if you work 40hrs a week you should earn a living wage. Current minimum wage does not amount to a living wage. When people cannot afford to live due to economic circumstances, crime increases as many good people do what they feel they have to in order to survive.

Some arguments against I hear and thoughts I have are:
1. Cost of my happy meal is going to go up. Hells no!!
- But when you look at the added cost for McDonalds to increase those employees wages to a livable wage, the cost increase of menu items to offset the wage increase is very minimal based on the volume sold. So yea I think the wage increase benefit to people performing those jobs in our community, is worth a 10 cent increase in the cost of a burger.

2. Small business will suffer/cannot afford it. Hells no!!
- But how about the idea that most small businesses actually pay more than minimum wage to their employees already. The typical reason is that (not all but many) small businesses tend to pay higher wage to retain employees, even at entry level. Large corporations can afford to have more employee turnover thus they don't always have incentive to pay more than minimum. On the other hand McDonalds costs go up but the corner burger place has no effect since all the employees already. This is good for those small businesses in competition with McDonald.

If you feel like corporations cannot afford it, you could look at a McDonalds competitor, In and Out. They pay above minimum wage already and seem to do just fine...

3. If wages increase jobs will be automated, then there will be NO jobs at all.
- I agree this could speed up automation taking over low-skilled jobs associated with minimum wage. However, this automation train is already rolling. Corporations must keep increasing profits every year to stay alive and keep shareholders bought-in. That said, the progression of automation replacing manual labor jobs will not stop or reverse course.

No doubt, that change always negatively impacts a certain percentage of folks - they tend to scream loudest. Unfortunately, in this case most of the poo poo on this idea comes from the wealthiest corporations and their lobby groups which do a good job of convincing many people to vote against the overall best interest of our communities.

At work here without a lot of time to explain all my thoughts but basically I feel that if every person in our communities could afford shelter - food - healthcare - education, we would ALL be safer, happier and more productive. Increasing minimum wage is a good step in the right direction.

I'm all for better living situations, but this is American land of opportunities. If your making minimum wage flipping burgers at McDonald's and dont like it, go to in N out. If your working at Walmart store, transfer to Walmart warehouse they pay twice as much. The other day I saw an add about emt's not making enough money and they where asking for signatures (or some shit) to get a raise. Wtf!! First I was shocked at how little they get paid, but why would you want to do that job in the first place if your not going to be happy with your wages?

Sigh.

You can live on 8.05 an hour. I know people who do. You just can't live like someone who makes $20 an hour. That is the point. If you don't like living a min. wage lifestyle then you better your situation, as King06 said.

Funny how many people I know that make less than 10 an hour seem to not be realistic and do stupid things like have children or car payments. Then bitch about their situation like it is something they had/have no control over.

Crime increase isn't an issue of min. wage - it is an issue of min. minded people.


Many small businesses who have min. wage employees can't afford it.

The increase in the min. wage represents 24% more payroll increase. Do you realize how large that is per year?

Let me illustrate a real world example for you.

Paul owns a small, specialty construction company. His business is polymer floor coatings.

Paul has 18 employees, 10 of which are laborers at min. wage and 5 are foremen. Paul also pays himself, a supervisor, and an account a salary that is not exorbitant.

Paul's ten labors were making 8.05 which is a fair wage for someone who basically uses brooms, squeegees, and paint rollers all day. Paul's foremen make 15 bucks an hour + job completion bonuses.

Paul also provides the mandated minimum health insurance for his employees.

Like most small businesses, Paul's Coatings, INC doesn't rake in the cash. He makes it by, like a normal person.

The minimum wage increase means the amount of paid wages for his min. wage workers now costs him over 40K more a year. That equates more than he pays for another Foreman. It equates to nearly as much as he pays an accountant.

How is Paul supposed to come up with 40K MORE per year, when he is in a business that doesn't really grow per year? How is he supposed to raise his prices to cover this when he is already battling companies that are undercutting him using cheaper materials, and some that use undocumented/under the table labor?

There is another side effect to this as well. Now that the laborers, the unskilled workers just got a nearly $2 an hour pay raise - what do you think his foremen are going to want? More money. Now, in comparison to the unskilled labor - they feel undervalued in the company since they are skilled and the gap between skilled and unskilled labor is now nearly cut in half.

This is the typical, and real picture faced by most small businesses.

The side effect no one seems to think about is the reason there is a wage gap - the separation between the skilled and lesser skilled workers.

If you peruse the job market you will see that many jobs for entry level skilled workers (CAD, IT, Construction, etc) start at around 10 an hour.

Do you think a person who operates a broom, flips a burger, or cleans bathrooms is worth the same per hour as someone fresh out of school as a CAD drafter, Construction Estimator, or IT professional? I don't.

What happens when the increases in min. wage cause the wage separation to shorten between skilled and unskilled? The Skilled will want more money, as they have worked/educated harder to earn more money.

Your "idea" that "most" do - is very limited and narrow. Many small business (construction, automotive, environmental, etc) require unskilled min. wage workers. Nearly every small business I know employs people at min. wage.

Competition with large corporate entities that get better prices on materials and supplies is NEVER good for smaller businesses that do not enjoy the benefits of being a gigantic corporate entity. The local Culver's franchise I eat at once in a while - the manager there was telling me how much they are not looking forward to the min. wage increase.



Several places are already testing automated order taking already. So what happens to these workers? Other min. wage employers are going to be cutting back, so they are not going to be hiring. Now these displaced workers will have to rely on the government for assistance. Where does that money come from, oh - taxes. How does that help?


You statement that the "poo pooing" on the min. wage increase only comes from the wealthiest of corporation owners shows how hilariously out of touch you are with the small business community. I personally know 10+ small business owners who are going to be out in jeopardy because of this increase.

The small business owners, franchise owners, etc are people that live in our communities. So tell me how a 24% increase in overhead of unskilled workers is helping them?


What direction? Direction of you feel warm and fuzzy inside for supporting something that you don't understand the consequences of? Lol.

Ask your community members who own small businesses that employ min. wage workers what they think about it. I am sure you won't feel so warm and fuzzy about your views.

People like you seem to think that just because someone owns a business, they are bazillionaires. This is the complete opposite. The vast majority of small business owners who employee min. wage employees can't afford giving them a 2 dollar an hour raise.

Don't even get me started about the effect this is going to have on outsourcing to foreign companies.


I am a barely educated hillbilly. I make decent money. If I can do it, anyone can. Forcing employers to pay people more who are unmotivated, unwilling, or indifferent to furthering themselves is the wrong thing to do.

My issue is this....the McD's worker pay goes up....McD's prices go up to keep profit margins the same....but MY pay and all of Middle Class America's pay stays the same, so once again the middle class gets fucked in the end.

And the middle class is what drives America and the economy, not the lower class worker that has subsidized rent, a car loan they STILL can't afford, etc. etc.

I want a raise, please.

Come over after midnight:031:

12:01

It's kind of lame because they're performing the same job so it should be the same wage. Somebody will always be getting screwed no matter what is done. But if a person is under 18 they probably have less money obligations. No rent, no children, they're on their parents healthcare. A lot of the money is disposable income. Paul can then hire highschool jason and boppers to coat floors and keep his overhead down.

Lol that's discrimination. But seriously, want more money, get a better job. This raise is going to help them out for a period of time, then the cost of living will go up, then they will want another raise.

Who's boppers lol jk



I don't know how to word it without being a total asshole and since I'm the nicest guy on azht I agreee with king06.

The robots are coming.

You can live on 8.05 an hour. I know people who do. You just can't live like someone who makes $20 an hour. That is the point. If you don't like living a min. wage lifestyle then you better your situation, as King06 said.
So pre-tax $8.05 gets you - $16,744.00/year or $1,395.33/month
Let’s say 25% in taxes leaves you - $12,558.00/year or $1,046.50/month. This is just above what is considered poverty wages for an “individual” ($11,880.00).
I would like to see this person or family’s monthly budget…

Funny how many people I know that make less than 10 an hour seem to not be realistic and do stupid things like have children (let me ask – so you are saying abstinence works and stupid poor folk shouldn’t have sex or you are ok with abortion when pregnancy is unexpected?) or car payments. Then bitch about their situation like it is something they had/have no control over.

Crime increase isn't an issue of min. wage - it is an issue of min. minded people.
You are absolutely wrong here. poor communities – people are literally and figuratively starving for decades in these impoverished areas. The majority of jobs in those areas only pay minimum wage = distressed living situations. Many have unfortunately turned to illegal activity to provide a living wage for them or their family.

Many small businesses who have min. wage employees can't afford it.

The increase in the min. wage represents 24% more payroll increase. Do you realize how large that is per year? Absolutely as I said, some businesses will be hit in the wallet harder than others. The slave-wage business model is not good for the long term health of those businesses and communities.

Let me illustrate a real world example for you.

Paul owns a small, specialty construction company. His business is polymer floor coatings.

Paul has 18 employees, 10 of which are laborers at min. wage and 5 are foremen. Paul also pays himself, a supervisor, and an account a salary that is not exorbitant.

Paul's ten labors were making 8.05 which is a “fair wage” for someone who basically uses brooms, squeegees, and paint rollers all day. Paul's foremen make 15 bucks an hour + job completion bonuses. lol

Paul also provides the mandated minimum health insurance for his employees.

Like most small businesses, Paul's Coatings, INC doesn't rake in the cash. He makes it by, like a normal person.

The minimum wage increase means the amount of paid wages for his min. wage workers now costs him over 40K more a year. That equates more than he pays for another Foreman. It equates to nearly as much as he pays an accountant.

How is Paul supposed to come up with 40K MORE per year, when he is in a business that doesn't really grow per year? I would say Paul should re-evaluate the business model, become more efficient, adapt. How is he supposed to raise his prices to cover this when he is already battling companies that are undercutting him using cheaper materials, and some that use undocumented/under the table labor? Cheaper materials – Businesses using under the table paid labor and knock-off material is a separate problem he should address within his business model. This is just an excuse to stop thinking realistically about the real problem.

There is another side effect to this as well. Now that the laborers, the unskilled workers just got a nearly $2 an hour pay raise - what do you think his foremen are going to want? More money. Now, in comparison to the unskilled labor - they feel undervalued in the company since they are skilled and the gap between skilled and unskilled labor is now nearly cut in half. I would point them to their bonuses and discuss a realistic strategy with them about how to increase their bonus and remind them that they still make 66% more hourly than the laborer.

This is the typical, and real picture faced by most small businesses.

The side effect no one seems to think about is the reason there is a wage gap - the separation between the skilled and lesser skilled workers.

If you peruse the job market you will see that many jobs for entry level skilled workers (CAD, IT, Construction, etc) start at around 10 an hour.

Do you think a person who operates a broom, flips a burger, or cleans bathrooms is worth the same per hour as someone fresh out of school as a CAD drafter, Construction Estimator, or IT professional? I don't. Not saying they are worth the same wage. I am saying that 40hrs/week working should net a living wage in the wealthiest country on earth in 2017.

What happens when the increases in min. wage cause the wage separation to shorten between skilled and unskilled? The Skilled will want more money, as they have worked/educated harder to earn more money. Is it possible that the "skilled" employees ARE NOT making a fair wage for what they do? You are implying that the gap between them and minimum wage is how you would define a "fair" wage, not based on what they actually produce... Keep in mind that the majority of millenials are making less money than our parents - in the same occupation - while saddled with huge student loans to repay.
Quote:
2. Small business will suffer/cannot afford it. Hells no!!
- But how about the idea that most small businesses actually pay more than minimum wage to their employees already. The typical reason is that (not all but many) small businesses tend to pay higher wage to retain employees, even at entry level. Large corporations can afford to have more employee turnover thus they don't always have incentive to pay more than minimum. On the other hand McDonalds costs go up but the corner burger place has no effect since all the employees already. This is good for those small businesses in competition with McDonald.
Your "idea" that "most" do - is very limited and narrow. Many small business (construction, automotive, environmental, etc) require unskilled min. wage workers. Nearly every small business I know employs people at min. wage.

Competition with large corporate entities that get better prices on materials and supplies is NEVER good for smaller businesses that do not enjoy the benefits of being a gigantic corporate entity. The local Culver's franchise I eat at once in a while - the manager there was telling me how much they are not looking forward to the min. wage increase.
Myth: Small business owners can't afford to pay their workers more, and therefore don't support an increase in the minimum wage.
Not true: A July 2015 survey found that 3 out of 5 small business owners with employees support a gradual increase in the minimum wage to $12. The survey reports that small business owners say an increase "would immediately put more money in the pocket of low-wage workers who will then spend the money on things like housing, food, and gas. This boost in demand for goods and services will help stimulate the economy and help create opportunities."


Quote:
3. If wages increase jobs will be automated, then there will be NO jobs at all.
- I agree this could speed up automation taking over low-skilled jobs associated with minimum wage. However, this automation train is already rolling. Corporations must keep increasing profits every year to stay alive and keep shareholders bought-in. That said, the progression of automation replacing manual labor jobs will not stop or reverse course.
Several places are already testing automated order taking already. So what happens to these workers? Other min. wage employers are going to be cutting back, so they are not going to be hiring. Now these displaced workers will have to rely on the government for assistance. Where does that money come from, oh - taxes. How does that help?
Overall problem is that labor jobs are disappearing at the hands of automation. This trend is not going to reverse.

Quote:
No doubt, that change always negatively impacts a certain percentage of folks - they tend to scream loudest. Unfortunately, in this case most of the poo poo on this idea comes from the wealthiest corporations and their lobby groups which do a good job of convincing many people to vote against the overall best interest of our communities.
You statement that the "poo pooing" on the min. wage increase only comes from the wealthiest of corporation owners shows how hilariously out of touch you are with the small business community. I personally know 10+ small business owners who are going to be out in jeopardy because of this increase.

The small business owners, franchise owners, etc are people that live in our communities. So tell me how a 24% increase in overhead of unskilled workers is helping them?
Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for businesses.
Not true: Academic research has shown that higher wages sharply reduce employee turnover which can reduce employment and training costs.


Quote:

At work here without a lot of time to explain all my thoughts but basically I feel that if every person in our communities could afford shelter - food - healthcare - education, we would ALL be safer, happier and more productive. Increasing minimum wage is a good step in the right direction.
What direction? Direction of you feel warm and fuzzy inside for supporting something that you don't understand the consequences of? Lol.
Right Direction – pulling families out of poverty. Allowing families that hold these jobs more time to raise their kids so they can become productive people in our community. Less people turning to criminal activities to support themselves. Less people drawing welfare to afford life.

Ask your community members who own small businesses that employ min. wage workers what they think about it. I am sure you won't feel so warm and fuzzy about your views.
I have and they do. Some are concerned about overhead but are making adjustments because they see the long term greater good. Less turnover, less crime, less draw on tax funded subsidies, parents able to raise the future generation instead of working 2+ jobs to make it.

People like you seem to think that just because someone owns a business, they are bazillionaires. Not true at all, both my folks own small businesses as well as many friends, family and subcontractors I currently work with. This is the complete opposite. The vast majority of small business owners who employee min. wage employees can't afford giving them a 2 dollar an hour raise. You must have a vast experience with businesses that are modeled around low wage workers and are barely making it. Those are the ones that will be hurt with the change. That is unfortunate but is not the vast majority of small businesses.

Don't even get me started about the effect this is going to have on outsourcing to foreign companies. Ok, I won’t. let’s keep it to the US for this discussion.


I am a barely educated hillbilly. I make decent money. If I can do it, anyone can. Forcing employers to pay people more who are unmotivated, unwilling, or indifferent to furthering themselves is the wrong thing to do. Hey, me too. Grew up in poverty and made it out. But you should realize that for each of us there are thousands that did not make it for a variety of reasons that “life” throws at us. If you think all poor people are lazy or crooks and that is the problem I would suggest you read more and look at the studies on this topic.
Some more myths that are out there. Yes you can find individual contradictions to any of these conclusions but if you look at the overall data you will see that paying a person a livable wage positively impacts our communities as a whole - immensely more than keeping working class folks in poverty - which is entirely unnecessary in today's world.

Min wage = minimum lifestyle. Voting in an auto pay raise isn't right. The average yearly wages of where I am from when I moved here - was 16k a year. That was the AVERAGE wage. Plenty of people made it by.


No I am saying if you make minimum wage and are barely scraping by - don't reproduce or engage in activity that has a chance of. Amazing what a 7 dollar box of prophylactics can do to save you money.

You seem to ignore the fact that people can find better jobs, move up in their current ones with effort, or proactively try to better their situation. I have learned over the years that most people who find minimum wage acceptable have no desire to actually do more, learn more, or put forth more effort.

I worked for a very large company that employed a large number of minimum wage employees. This company offered FREE (on your own time) training. All you had to do was show up, learn, take a test. When you completed a certain amount of these you were automatically promoted and give a raise.

Out of approx. 1200 min. wage employees - how many per year do you think did this? It was less than 15. It wasn't because it was hard, it was because they didn't want to better their situation.

When I worked at a specialty contractor, if you worked hard and did a good job - and learned on the job, in about a year you would be promoted and it basically nearly doubled your pay rate. Out of the several hundred employees I seen at entry level - only a handful put forth the effort to do this. The ones who didn't had zero issues bitching about their pay though.....but couldn't be bothered to take the path to increase it.

Min. wage isn't slave wages. Look up what "slave" means. Increasing the cost of living for everyone and potentially destroying the livelihoods of hundreds of small business owners and employees in not good for communities.

You obviously have no clue to how cut-throat, and hard it is to make it in some industries. Most small businesses in competitive industry are up against other businesses who may not follow the law, or engage in shady practices to undercut their competition.

How is he supposed to raise his prices to cover this when he is already battling companies that are undercutting him using cheaper materials, and some that use undocumented/under the table labor?

[/quote]

Spoken like someone who knows nothing of what they are trying to discuss.

In my example (which is based on my former employer) there are no cheaper materials to do the job right. Many manufacturing and specialty construction are limited on the materials they can use by spec.
When you bid a job, at a certain spec - certain materials are called for. In my example many shady companies will either lie, or misrepresent their products to get the contracts.

How do address your competitors using illegal/under the table labor in a business plan.

Enlighten us on how that works and can increase profits to overcome an increase in minimum wages.


I somehow doubt your naive tactics would work. The wage gap is there for a reason. The point is if the bottom of the barrel guys get a 24% pay raise - then the gap defining the harder working, more responsible and experienced is much smaller - therefore devaluing their role in the company. Plain and simple. Wage gap is a way of showing your employees their value over other lesser skilled employers.

Minimum wage is a living wage for people who want minimum lifestyles. And you may want to fact check - the US is not the "wealthiest" country on earth by PPP. Infact, we barely scrape into the top 10....



Varies by the industry. One's personal debt shouldn't denote the minimum wage. Not all industries can base pay on production, as some skilled positions are quantified differently.

The job market/expectation and lifestyles of millennial these days are drastically different than their parents. Also the job market here has changed quite a bit. If you take the minimum / low wage jobs 50 years ago, adjust for inflation - they actually are quite comparable.

The main change is the willingness and expectations of those who think they are more entitled then they really are.

What survey and where. Link it.

Zero small business I deal with that have minimum wage employees would want that increase. Explain to me how destroying the small businesses that employ minimum wage workers by forcing them to pay much hire wages would stimulate them and create opportunities for those businesses. How does increasing overhead create opportunities?

Nothing like a forced massive pay increase to help speed the process.

Link me that reseach. I want to see where it comes from and who they researched.


I seriously doubt any of that would happen. The cost of living will increase to offset the higher cost of labor. This will effectively (and historically been proven) cancel out your "benefits" of this wage hike.

Also, explain to me how the increase in goods helps me out. I don't make minimum wage. I don't get an automatic pay raise - yet already some things I purchase regularly have increased. Now my cost of living has increased.
You must live in some sort of bizarre-land. Your statements are the exact opposite of what the 30-60+ businesses I deal with weekly are saying about it.


No, I just work with businesses that do things properly, and because of that the cost of doing business is higher. Profit margins in many industries are not exorbitant, and competition is high.

Never in the history of minimum wage increase has there ever been a large change in the lifestyles of people making those wages. It doesn't happen. The people making 8.05 an hour now, won't see any drastic improvement in their lifestyle by making 10 an hour. However the cost of living for everyone - will now increase. All the businesses that employ minimum wage workers will/have already raised prices to accommodate the increase in overhead. The small businesses that run tight budgets are going to be hit hard. Lots won't make it. The employees there, will all have to rely on government assistance when they lose their jobs.

The "overall" data paints a very realistic picture of all I have said.

Livable wage is just that - enough to live on. That is it. It isn't a have kids, buy things you can't afford, and live beyond your means wage. It isn't a smoke 2 packs a day, drink 8 beers a night, and hit up the QT for breakfast every morning wage. It is a scrape-by-till-you-improve-your-situation wage.

I have found in my life experiences that 90% of people who make minimum wage are making that low pay because of their own choices in life. Why should everyone else pay more for that?

I think he got those quotes from the department of labor's site.

Yeah, he just cut and pasted some stuff from another website. Lol.

Have no fear, when I get bored later tonight - I will post actual sources, graphs to show my point of view and logic.

This would be great, I would love to see the data and research showing that keeping a low minimum wage or letting capitalism sort it out is the best route for the country as a whole.

Ill have to respond to your rebuttals later when I have more time..

This read may help you understand how a living minimum wage is important and why the current minimum wage too low.

"Since its inception in the Great Depression, a strong minimum wage has been recognized as a key labor market institution that, if effectively maintained, can provide the foundation for equitable and adequate pay for American workers. However, the failure to regularly and adequately raise the federal minimum wage over the past five decades is one of several policy failures that have denied a generation of American workers more significant improvement in their quality of life. In fact, the erosion of the minimum wage has left low-wage workers today earning significantly less than their counterparts 50 years ago."
Read about it here my friends:

Damn I'm late to this party but I also voted against it it makes no sense prices go up and my wages stay the same

I love how that fact escapes all those who argue that raising the min. wage was worth it.

They seem to ignore that cost of things will rise, therefore negating the benefit for those on minimum wage, and essentially raising the cost of living for those who make more.

I have already noticed several places I frequent raising prices to cover the added overhead.

This. I think we get a "cost of living" raise once a year, last year I think it was 35¢.

I have a cola every year too. You can kind of look at it as your housing becoming cheaper if you're on a fixed rate loan. $.35x40hrs per week = $14 * 52 weeks in a year = $728 per year. You get paid more, your housing cost stays the same.