In recent news :

Trump outlines an immigration reform plan that makes sense :

Trump's ideas on fighting ISIS in the middle east (which makes some sense...)




Hilary's woes continue, as the amount of classified data on her unsecured servers grow :



The Syria drama continues, and this is relevant as our administration fumbled our involvement. Also, considering Iran is supplying the rebels, and the terror groups (ISIS, Al-Q, etc) this is even more important as Obama pushes to be friendly with anti-US Iran and a year ago called ISIS/IS nothing to worry about.





Biden will announce if he is running before October. This could spell disaster for Hilary, especially given how deep her poo-bath is getting.



Biden also has done what Obama won't (Acknowledge terrorism is happening in this country by Islamic Extremist.) Funny how Obama refuses to call these things what it is...and these kind of remarks and public appearances can distance his political aspirations from being stuffed under the same limp-dick attitude as Obama when regarding terrorism and religion.

Freedom is in the air.

You know what it does do? Ruin your credibility. And making this statement proves that even more. So a fact isn't important to make a decision as a whole because there are 7 other facts that prove your point? This is exactly what sensationalized media does. Leave out facts because they deem them unimportant. If your point was so strong with the other charts what difference would it make quoting this one too?

There is so much twisted misinformation here, I really don't care to get sucked into this debate here.

I'm voting for Sanders.

at least throw in something to stir the pot.

Considering I am the only one in here actually researching, citing, and posting where/how I get my theories I am pretty sure my credibility is intact.

I have even tried to be as "unbiased" as possible in citing the sources for my personal political leanings. I could just post a bunch of stuff from websites that cater to my views - but I have posted from both right and left leaning sources. Granted I am not unbiased - as no one is when it comes to Politics, but I have tried to only post facts.


You are assuming that I had some sort of sly censoring intention in leaving that one out, when in reality I did not as it does not change my point. The problem with the chart I didn't post is that it is a very complicated thing to wrap your head around.



That chart illustrates that Obama's percentage public debt lags behind Reagan and Bush Jr.

You may think that is a good thing right?

Here is my interpretation of that chart :


What did we get under Reagan to account for his massive increase in public held governmental debt?

- over 16 million new jobs created.
- an unemployment rate and inflation rate that he better than halved.
- Strengthening of our armed forces to the tune of a 40% increase in spending.
- Reagonomics
- Failed "Star Wars" defense

Reagan - while not immune from bad decisions - at least did what he said he would do, and that was get America out of a financial depression, and revitalize our military to "end the cold war."


Those show why public debt changed so drastically under Reagan.

How about Bush Jr?

For our increase in public held debt we got :

- 1.3 trillion in tax cuts
- Patriot act
- Afghanistan
- Iraq and the WMD hunt
- War on Terror
- Medicare Section D
- Provided 15 billion dollars in support towards Africa and AIDs.

Bush Jr - pretty self explanatory. Wanted to go play in the sandbox with the expensive toys. So we paid for it.

But Obama - what did we get for our money?

- Obamacare.
- 787 Billion in "economic stimulus" (not quite what ol' W spent...)
- 62 Billion in bailouts
- Expansion of government assistance


Obama's changes have mostly all been in "small ticket" changes - so why is the public getting such an increase in held debt and overall?

I think Obama's biggest failure is the one that has lead to him having one of the lowest average approval rating in presidential history.

This article does a nice job of comparing what I am talking about :



Basically - IMO - that chart that you think I left out because I didn't want people to see it (which isn't the case) goes to show how little we have gotten for our increase in public held governmental debt.
He won't get my support - but
I am not supporting Reagan, or Bush Jrs major expenditures - just listing the largest spending policies and actions the enacted. Whether the items I listed are worthy of spending money on or not - is another series of debates for another thread(s.)

You claims of misinformation is misinformation. Just because things don't align with your views - doesn't mean they are "twisted" or wrong.....

Two sides to every coin.


I didn't think you would be a Sanders supporter George. I thought for sure you would be a Hilary supporter. I suppose given our previous political discussions there are parts of Sander's political history/leanings you would find appealing.

While I don't particularly like Sanders - he is my favourite from that "side" of the table....

The issue I have with Sanders is his plans to raise minimum wage, support of labor unions, and what may become his healthcare plan.

What I like about Sanders :

His plans for the infrastructure, women's pay equality, and his thoughts towards outsourcing and loss of industry.

I agree.
I absolutely hate the $15 minimum wage argument, and believe it is arguably the stupidest decision that could be made economically short term.
My views align with his campaigns on infrastructure, equality, healthcare, and immigration almost completely.

I highly dislike Clinton. She is represented by the very corporations and big businesses she claims to condemn. She is nothing but a liar.

Paul, what is wrong with just fucking saying it? Your passive-aggressive name calling is getting annoying. "That side of the table." "One of those." Is there something wrong with just saying it?

Also Crono, how is a living wage stupid?

A living wage is $10/hr. Adjust for inflation, that is what the minimum wage should be. It's meant for highschool kids, people in tough times, or temporary employment until you can find a better job. You should be able to pay rent and buy food with it while working 40hr/day. If you wanted a higher wage, you should have stayed in school.

Yeah, $10/hr is fine in Arizona, where is costs damn near nothing to live. However, $10/hr isn't going to get you anywhere in other cities or states. Also, staying in school to get a higher wage is massive fallacy.

Funny. Staying in school worked for me. Maybe you shouldn't study useless shit, like psychology, or communications. Alternatively, study harder and get a more competitive resume.

If you can't afford to live a hip lifestyle in the city, maybe you shouldn't live in the city.

Coincidence that you called psychology useless, or was that some attempt at trying to get personal?

Also, how old are you?

Coincidence. I don't know you, and nothing I say is ever personal, unless provoked. We are just debating (something I said I wouldn't do, so I guess I lose)

I'm 26

Working a minimum wage job or selling burgers at Mcdonalds is not meant to be a career. Once inflation catches up with $15mw then the price of everything goes up. People that are already making $15hr wont get a bump in pay either. So now they went from a living wage to minimum wage and actuall have school loans to pay. $15mw is absolutly crazy. You want a better job, go to school and get a better education. Plenty have people have done it and maybe they should have thought about that before having a bunch of kids or doin drugs and partying.

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Dude, making excuses for your employer paying you shit doesn't change the fact that employers pay shit. The only reason prices go up is because people are stupid enough to believe that paying people more has a direct impact on the price of goods. It doesn't. Oh, so someone doesn't get to pull in 30 million this quarter because they have to pay employees a little more? Boo fucking hoo.

And no, fast food wasn't supposed to be a career, but it became a career when we allowed our jobs to be outsourced.

Its not a career and never will be a career selling burgers. Making excuses for lazy people is a whole different story. Paying people more across the board will have an effect on the price of goods. The people at the top get paid way to much and thats not my arguement. You just get mad at anyone that doesnt agree with you.

No, I get mad at people for blaming poor people for the problems rich people created.

I wrote like a huge 4 paragraph post... but then AZHT crashed. And I don't want to recreate it -_-

That's why I keep my posts short when I'm posting from my phone.

Lol sucker.

On a side note, how is psychology uselsess?

I get mad a poor people with no skills or education thinking they deserve the same pay as people that have skills or some kind of better education.

Modern politics is a stupid stupid stupid necessity in the United States. I say this because the majority of recent politics, especially during and after the George W Bush years, has been spent demonizing the "other side of the table" and less on what you should actually fucking do. You're more worried about who you're voting against than what you're actually voting for.

Any educated person that is able to separate their emotion from logic are able to see that Republicans and Democrats both want exactly the same thing: The most optimized path to making our country the best country in the world. And if you were able to just step back and stop pointing fingers, you'd see that we're all points on the same fucking curve, and that there is an optimized point in the equation.

Liberals don't want to completely abolish guns any more than Conservatives want to stick a gun in every able bodied human being. We want to be able to enjoy our hobbies, maintain our protection, and keep guns out of the hands of Mr-Neo-Nazi so he can't go shooting black churches.

Democrats don't want a socialistic society any more than Republicans want the wealth within the 1%. We want a fair economy where everyone is taxed and contributing a fair amount in comparison to what they earn, and that crippling injuries don't become life changing ones.

The Left doesn't want to give free healthcare and education to illegal immigrants any more than the Right wants to shoot any Mexican that crosses the border. We want American jobs to stay strong, have taxation for all labor being done in our borders, and to provide an amiable relationship with our neighbors.

But currently the United States political views are so fucking focused on creating a totem of blame to worship that we never actually get around to solving problems. That's mostly because people only frequent environments and other people who share their views. They spend time among those whose political alignments completely agree with their own, and the idea that the "other side" is wrong festers into an imaginary image of evil- when in reality, we all want the same fucking thing. This is what made us so great in the first place. The compromise between differing viewpoints allows us to choose the most optimized and efficient decision in direction our government.

And it's nearly impossible to change that kind of viewpoint because everyone has bias. We are a product of our environment and our upbringing, and it is so ingrained in our thinking that changing it becomes so difficult as time goes on. That's why arguing politics is one of the stupidest, moronic, useless necessities that our government as a democracy must endure. If you really wanted to see where you stood politically, don't attend rallies of candidates you support - attend the rallies of candidates you don't to see their point of view. Nobody does this.



I don't mean to sound tactless, but from an objectional point of view in this debate, I would like to think that my viewpoints have a large amount of credibility because I've been able to experience both extremes. I grew up in the slums of South Glendale, attending a grade school whose overwhelmingly minority graduates would never really amount to anything aside from the lowest tier of social class. Entering highschool, I was able to get a better education because of my standardized test scores, and enrolled in an International Baccalaureate program. This school was incredibly conservative, mostly white. and unbelievably Christian. The contrast between the two environments were shocking. I went to college, an inherently liberal setting, but tried my best to immerse myself within different schools of thought. I hung out with veterans during my paintballing/milsim hobbies, die hard caucasian rednecks who represent everything 'Murica' stood for. Their ridiculously conservative views had merit, even if they didn't align with my own from time to time. I gather what knowledge I could and compared that to my own. I graduated, got a job, and entered middle America. Having a moderate income granted me an enlightened view because of my incredibly poor upbringing. I see it from both sides, especially since most of my family make the lowest tier of working Americans.

Because of this, I would like to think that my point of view represents the middle ground between Left and Right. I want to believe that what I view politically/morally is the best compromise. I don't expect everyone to believe what I believe, because that would be wrong. Because I myself as an individual am flawed.

I have constructed strong arguments using facts, statistics, and analogies and am so exhausted at trying to persuade Democrats and Republicans into seeing middle ground. And unless you can completely seperate emotion from logic, I really am not inclined to talk politics. This is why I no longer wish to enter arguments with Paul. The last time Paul and I talked, he became incredibly offended by my statements and a thorn was put in our relationship. Talking politics is just not worth it, especially since the whole idea is stupid anyways. We all want the same fucking thing. Demonizing one side doesn't do anything but hurt the compromise of ideals.








But back to the thread at hand. I am voting for Bernie Sanders because he embodies many ideals that I believe. He isn't the typical left, which is why I abhor the lying Clinton. He represents middle America at its core, and I believe him to be the most optimized candidate in directing our country. His views are almost radical by Liberal standards, and it challenges the status quo by thinking outside the box.

In a nutshell
- Tax immigrants who work within our borders, yet offer them amiable assistance at their own cost
- Make healthcare affordable, and all encompassing. We as a first world country are behind in this regard.
- Strengthen the lower and middle class. Raising minimum wage is just a small part of this.
- Introduce fair taxation. The top 1% who own the majority of wealth should also be taxed as such.
- Push for gender and race equality.
- Address law enforcement corruption, especially against minorities.

I say 'directing' and not 'bettering' because I don't believe our country is broken. I don't believe we are in shambles. I don't believe the current administration has 'ruined' anything. I don't believe we are suffering or behind like we were in 2008 after Bush. Our economy is strong, employment is steady, the stock market is stable, housing market is improving, equality has made strides recently, and we as a country are doing just fine. We are simply chugging away like any other civilization- changing, sure, but not becoming better or worse in large magnitudes. Anyone who says otherwise aren't looking at all the numbers.

If you want to look at numbers without bias, follow Nate Silver. He has repeatedly projected stats - both political and sports - with near impossible accuracy and precision.

Psychology is useless because employment is hard with that degree. The same as communication, sports management, history, etc. If you're going to pay up the ass for a degree, get a degree that can make you money.

Poor people have nothing to do with it. Blame employers for paying people shit. My interpretation of what you're saying is that poor people shouldn't ask for a raise because it's offensive to people with some kind of skill due to employers setting the bar really low, and any type of raise would bring poor people to that level.

Agreed

This is where we disagree. Politicians as a whole don't give a fuck about our country, nor about the people they represent. This country serves to make them money, and they will only continue to do what little it is they actually do for as long as they're making bank from doing it.

Higher education psychology degrees aren't actually that expensive. A previous professor of mine , Dr. Smith, claimed to not have paid a cent out of pocket for her Ph.D due to all the scholarships available. The only problem with the field of psychology is that you won't see the big bucks unless you have a Ph.D. You can get by with a master's, but you're never going to land anything more than $50k a year with one. And I'm totally fine with that. I draw $21k a year from VA disability (and as I get older, the number will only go higher), so if I can get a $35k-$40k a year job with a bachelor's in psychology then I'll be bringing in $55k-$60k a year before taxes and I'm totally cool with that, and that's totally doable in southern Arizona.

Also, immigrants living in our borders are already taxed. If they don't have a SSN, they have a Tax Identification Number. TINs are easy as fuck to get, and you don't need to be living in the country to get one. My beef with immigration is that illegal immigration is encouraged due to the immigration process taking fucking forever and costing shit tons of money. Speed up the process and make it cheaper. Why should someone have to wait over a year for their green card? That makes no sense at all. Encouraging legal immigration by speeding up the process and making it cheaper would be a much more productive method than building a stupid ass wall and fronting Mexico the bill like we're actually going to do something if they mail the bill back to us with a sticky note that reads, "LOL."

I too plan on voting for Bernie Sanders.

And this is why I will never vote for Donald Trump. Dude wants to bitch about China ruining the country, and about how they manipulate their currency so that American companies can't compete, yet does nothing to bring jobs to America.

The dude is just another weasel out to make money off of Americans, and then cries about how he's just another person caught in the horrible system of Chinese business. I can't rally behind a "man" who has no personal accountability. Make shit in America and your products will sell themselves. I know plenty of people who will go out of their way and spend a few dollars more to buy something that is American made because the satisfaction of supporting American industry is greater to us than saving money. But if Trump makes his products in America, he won't be able to make money hand over fist, yet I'm supposed to feel sorry for him? This whole thing reminds me of when Napster was a thing and we were all supposed to feel sorry for Metallica because they couldn't afford to buy another island in the Caribbean due to album sales plummeting. Am I the only person who finds it absolutely hilarious that the Toyota Camry is the most American made car sold in the United States?

People find it easier to side with a party, instead of research the actual issues and plans. This is why there are only a few people in this thread actually being useful with information and going into detail.

Modern society for the most part can't be bothered to look into anything past a headling.

Most politicians want what is best for them, their party, and/or their backers. Unfortunate but true. Most big-name politicians would sell this country to the chinese if they could keep their quality of life, be above the law, and/or break the law with little to no recourse.

This I don't agree with. Both sides. I still don't think you have figured out the core of liberalism. The problem is if you keep a gun out of Mr. Neo-Nazi's hands - he will find another way. Intent of that nature is infallible in finding a way to carry it out.

Gun control, however - is another topic for another thread.

Totem of blame is the very nature of society. Human nature is that to not admit one's failings - and to do that you have to find something/someone to blame.

We all don't want the same thing - this is why there is a divide. And to be honest - IMO - it isn't a bad thing.

Attending rallies does nothing. Those are a structured, pre-written, packaged bunch of self-serve that is catered to the demographic they are visiting. To truly see where the politicians are going - you must dig, dig, dig. Read the good and the bad - and use logic to figure it out. There is one good thing about most politicians - their behaviour rarely changes. To see where they are going, look at where they have came from.[/quote]

I seriously doubt you are the only person here with credibility from a diverse life-path. You upbringing has been no different than a large percentage of "normal" people. You have no more credibility in this thread than anyone else who is taking the time to express and intelligent post defending their stance to be honest.

The last time you and I chatted about this, you are correct - it caused a commotion. Lets not forget you called me a terrorist and was unable to continue with keeping your frustrations/temper/emotions/etc in check. I wasn't offended by your point of view - I was offended by your name calling and personal accusations and failed attempt in interject race into the debate. There were a few witnesses to that.....


You keep saying the "we all want the same thing" - when we don't.

Your vision of a "perfect" America is not universal. If you rounded up 100 people - you would get 90 differing ideas. You can't blanket everyone under the banner of "Success" because success isn't a standardized measurement. What you consider successful isn't what everyone else does.

No Paul, I said your actions were no different than Jihadist zealots. I didn't call you, specifically, a jihadist zealot. You were the one who blocked and deleted me, not the other way around. I am more than happy to continue our previous discussion here in a public forum.

I don't mean attend rallies to support.

However you have to justify it. I did delete you, as there is no point in having someone on my page that will interject themselves into my political posts,get irrational, and compare me to religious extremist/terrorist and try to interject other unrelated issues into the discussion based solely on my personal life. Your comments and accusations were rude, poorly thought out, and personally insulting - if you can't see that then I clearly made the correct choice in removing you from my "friends" list and whatnot.

This is another issue, as it is unrelated to the topic at hand.


I was referring to all rallies, btw.

For scientific reason, now I want to see what was said.











Do it for science!